Thanks for the comment Sean! Here's a post-reply.
I was hoping to try and explain the open mind bit in the next post(that's why I numbered it), so you may have to wait a while for me to put it into words and publish it.
Until very recently I thought it was a person's choice whether or not they believed in God. I even felt that atheist pride for choosing not to believe.
And yes, there IS an apparent conscious decision made by the individual. That I do not deny. But take into consideration some of the things we know.
Think about your childhood. Think of a memory from when you were a kid. Something that's vivid and almost touchable. It is apparent that you are that kid, because those are your memories. But scientifically speaking, not trace of matter from 5 year old Sean is part of 19 year old Sean. If you've got a science background, you'll know that cells die and are replaced.
I don't know what that implies to choice DIRECTLY, but indirectly, it shows that that which is true, may not necessarily be that which is apparent.
Gabriel Gan told me that my method of reasoning would mean destroying the meaning of the word 'choice' itself. Maybe that's why it's so hard to get into. *shrugs*
So back to your question. Is it a choice, when we choose to break free from religion?
Our subconscious self does not make decisions. It is more of a determinant of choice, for the same reason punching in '2 + 2 =' on a calculator produces '4'. What we take to be choices, are just natural reactions due to the ways in which we were wired.
I know that doesn't answer your question, but I hate playing preacher. I prefer just expressing my formulas and getting people to try it out themselves. =)
And I think you probably made more sense than me!
Tuesday, April 13, 2010
Wednesday, April 7, 2010
Determinism 1
The objective of this post is to describe, in detail, why 'choice' is not a word that carries any relevance to the real world. I COULD be wrong, and nearly everyone I who has heard this theory from me thinks I'm delusional. I've also lost my ability to piece words together nicely, so this may get a little rough. Here goes.
Let's deal with the easy bit first; choices made by nature FOR us. No one chooses their genetic make-up, the culture into which they are soaked in, the way they're raised, the list goes on really. That much, we can infer to be true. Truth being a fact that's been tested enough times to be generally accepted as a fair reflection of the nature of things. My idea is this(it's not mine, but hey, NO ONE can truly own anything, though they can legally);
An extrapolation of the influence of external and internal forces(conscious and subconscious evaluations) on free will shows that choice is an illusion.
It's not that choice is outright FALSE. Choice is like superstition. It makes the world we live in easier to accept.
Ok, now to explain that idea.
Let's narrow the field down to behavioral choices, the typical gray area between free will and determinism. An individual's behavior is said to be determined by past experience, genetic make up, and free will. However, the perspective of the individual does not typically take this into account when behaving. When engaged in a conversation, the individual feels like he or she is choosing his or her words. But isn't it all part of a bigger mechanism? A conversation isn't something that occurs between two people.
A conversation cannot go many ways, but just one. Here's why.
When involved in a conversation, participants must know their boundaries, that is, how well they know the other person, what sort of topics would be relevant to a conversation with the other person, how the other person responds to rudeness or how the other person responds to dominating the conversation. These aren't always wild guesses. The accuracy of a person's boundary-judgment depends on how they interpret their past experience of conversations. This too, is determined by how much they think about their interactions with people, which in turn is determined by how socially inclined they are, which in turn is determined by many other factors. I don't think I have to list the factors that determine what makes an individual good at socializing out or maybe I just don't think I want to.
In a conversation involving two perfectly sane people, everything is pre-determined. Whether it starts with a "good morning" depends on the time of the day. No choice there. Whether or not they chose to meet in the morning depended on when they were mutually free to meet. Our schedules are rarely something we choose. Whether or not there is any hostility or humor depends on the moods of the two people, also determined by pre-conversation factors.
Atheism as well as religion aren't our own choices as well. A Christian who is born and raised Christian had no say in the matter. A person who continues practicing his religion does so because he or she is molded that way. When a person breaks free of his or her religion, it has to be an external force that sparks the change. Whatever the outside cause, the inside change is equally important. If the mind is open(an open mind is a trait that no one chooses, and open mindedness is rare. Most of us are open minded to certain ideas, but block off the rest. Again, it all depends on someone else's action), then the external force has a multiplied effect on the individual.
These 'invisible forces of determinism' can, and probably are easily mistaken as God. However, there is no degree of omniscience or self reflection in these invisible forces. They simply are. In fact, I think 'forces' is the wrong word. It's more of a series of events that influence each other. Unlike the ripple effect, these do not flow in a perfectly smooth pattern. If we were to use to ripple effect as an analogy for determinism, then the uneven lake floor and wind direction, that also effect the shape of the ripple must also be considered as part of the picture. In a sense, it's sort of a multiple ripple effect. Where each individual is its own ripple, unable to chose for itself its shape, but having no choice but to change itself as a natural reaction to other ripples or obstacles it encounters. That about sums it up.
Let's deal with the easy bit first; choices made by nature FOR us. No one chooses their genetic make-up, the culture into which they are soaked in, the way they're raised, the list goes on really. That much, we can infer to be true. Truth being a fact that's been tested enough times to be generally accepted as a fair reflection of the nature of things. My idea is this(it's not mine, but hey, NO ONE can truly own anything, though they can legally);
An extrapolation of the influence of external and internal forces(conscious and subconscious evaluations) on free will shows that choice is an illusion.
It's not that choice is outright FALSE. Choice is like superstition. It makes the world we live in easier to accept.
Ok, now to explain that idea.
Let's narrow the field down to behavioral choices, the typical gray area between free will and determinism. An individual's behavior is said to be determined by past experience, genetic make up, and free will. However, the perspective of the individual does not typically take this into account when behaving. When engaged in a conversation, the individual feels like he or she is choosing his or her words. But isn't it all part of a bigger mechanism? A conversation isn't something that occurs between two people.
A conversation cannot go many ways, but just one. Here's why.
When involved in a conversation, participants must know their boundaries, that is, how well they know the other person, what sort of topics would be relevant to a conversation with the other person, how the other person responds to rudeness or how the other person responds to dominating the conversation. These aren't always wild guesses. The accuracy of a person's boundary-judgment depends on how they interpret their past experience of conversations. This too, is determined by how much they think about their interactions with people, which in turn is determined by how socially inclined they are, which in turn is determined by many other factors. I don't think I have to list the factors that determine what makes an individual good at socializing out or maybe I just don't think I want to.
In a conversation involving two perfectly sane people, everything is pre-determined. Whether it starts with a "good morning" depends on the time of the day. No choice there. Whether or not they chose to meet in the morning depended on when they were mutually free to meet. Our schedules are rarely something we choose. Whether or not there is any hostility or humor depends on the moods of the two people, also determined by pre-conversation factors.
Atheism as well as religion aren't our own choices as well. A Christian who is born and raised Christian had no say in the matter. A person who continues practicing his religion does so because he or she is molded that way. When a person breaks free of his or her religion, it has to be an external force that sparks the change. Whatever the outside cause, the inside change is equally important. If the mind is open(an open mind is a trait that no one chooses, and open mindedness is rare. Most of us are open minded to certain ideas, but block off the rest. Again, it all depends on someone else's action), then the external force has a multiplied effect on the individual.
These 'invisible forces of determinism' can, and probably are easily mistaken as God. However, there is no degree of omniscience or self reflection in these invisible forces. They simply are. In fact, I think 'forces' is the wrong word. It's more of a series of events that influence each other. Unlike the ripple effect, these do not flow in a perfectly smooth pattern. If we were to use to ripple effect as an analogy for determinism, then the uneven lake floor and wind direction, that also effect the shape of the ripple must also be considered as part of the picture. In a sense, it's sort of a multiple ripple effect. Where each individual is its own ripple, unable to chose for itself its shape, but having no choice but to change itself as a natural reaction to other ripples or obstacles it encounters. That about sums it up.
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